Let me begin by saying this, I believe wholeheartedly that under no circumstance should any Christian attack the character of a person who claims to be homosexual. People who make trite, offensive comments like, "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" only work to close down the dialogue that needs to take place on this issue.
What we see from Scripture is that Jesus showed grace and truth in all He did ( John 1:14 ). We need to follow Jesus' example. We are to demonstrate grace to a person who claims to be homosexual, but we should also have the courage to speak the truth in love about homosexuality.
Solomon said that a "friend loves at all times" ( Proverbs 17:17 ). He also said that "wounds from a friend can be trusted" ( Proverbs 27:6 ). This is the kind of friend that a Christian needs to be to the person who says he or she is a homosexual.
Currently there are four states that have sought to legalize same-sex marriage. Iowa was the third state in that list. No matter what rogue Justices decide on a bench as they revise and reinterpret state constitutions, Marriage has always had one uniform definition. It is a religiously and civil sanctioned union between a man and a woman.
Biblically, marriage is a divinely ordered institution designed to form a permanent union between one man and one woman for the purpose not only of bringing blessing to each other but also of procreating or propagating the human race ( Genesis 1:27-28; Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5 ). Obviously the Biblical definition is not only impossible, but ultimately wrong in a same-sex marriage.
Jesus Himself only understood marriage in a heterosexual way ( Matthew 19:4-5 ).
Traditional marriage has a stabilizing effect on society and provides an optimal and healthy environment for raising children. Same-sex marriages, by contrast, have a destabilizing effect on society and do not provide an optimal and healthy environment for raising children. Research has proven that in countries that grant marriage rights to same-sex couples, traditional marriages decline, out-of-wedlock births increase, and the family unit suffers injury.
What happened on Friday, April 4th here in Iowa with the ruling by our State Supreme Court has sent our state into an out-of-control tailspin. The majority of citizens of this state have been left without a voice and without representation in their legislature.
This is NOT a political issue. This is an issue of right and wrong. Either marriage is what the Bible says it is or our Courts are right. I choose to believe the Bible over the pirates who have taken hostage our State's constitution to rewrite and revise it in order to fit in with our current slouching toward Gomorrah.
What this decision means, if left unchallenged, is that someone like me (a Pastor) may in the future face criminal prosecution for not being willing to perform a same-sex marriage. This issue is very important.
Again, every homosexual person deserves our respect and no one should ever be demeaned or devalued. We should always treat others with the love and respect that Jesus showed us. But we can very strongly disagree. (It is okay to disagree...you just don't have to be disagreeable!)
Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle. And it is wrong. Not because I say so or because I hate any people group but simply because the Bible is true.
In this time of increasing darkness we need to know what God's Word says and be willing to stand up for what is right. The issue of marriage is an issue that I personally would be willing to be jailed over in order to fight for the truth. I will never let a judge or a legislator dictate to me what God's Word has clearly spoken on.
Pray for our State and our battle for marriage! One positive result from the Supreme Court ruling is that they have awakened a sleeping giant! There are many who are standing now to defend marriage. The Bible says that marriage should be honored by all ( Hebrews 13:4 ).
12 comments:
As nice as it seems to read that "no circumstance should any Christian attack the character of a person who claims to be homosexual," the opinions expressed here are little different in content and not that different in tone.
There are a few fundamental comments that I'd like to make.
1) Through out history, the bible has served as the basis for many decisions about things. An earlier example was the way that Galileo was condemned for suggesting (correctly) that the Earth moved around the Sun instead of the other way. In more recent history, the Bible has been used to support slavery, and the oppression of women. The Bible was used as the basis to oppose inter-racial marriages. To use the Bible as the basis for any argument is counterproductive to the health and well being of our society. The Bible's rightful place is use within a religious community, not within the framework of public policy.
2) In our current culture, Marriage has two parts. There is a Civil part where a marriage license is issued by the government and bestows on the couple a set of rights, priveleges and obligations of a legal nature. The other part is for some couples a religious ceremony. We have culturally come to understand these as one thing, when in reality they are not. One is about the legal side of marriage, and the other is about the religious side. Couples do, even today, enjoy one as opposed to both. I know same sex couples who have had ceremonies in a church, presided by a minister, but who lack the legal part of the marriage license. I know straight couples who have been marriage by a justice of the peace and have not had a religious ceremony. The Iowa decision and al other Marriage Equality actions are designed to provide only the legal side of marriage. No religious denomination has to begin to perform same-sex religious ceremonies unless they want to. So this legal decision does not intrude on religious beliefs in any way. It does however draw the distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage. Some are afraid that this will trivialize marriage, but in reality if it does anything it is the exact opposite. It provides another avenue to recognize long lasting committed relationships. For example, my partner and I have been together for 10 years. Additionally straight society has been trivializing marriage for years through the high divorce rate, and through such gimmicky marriages as the proverbial Las Vegas marriage by Elvis.
3) It is incorrect to claim that Iowa has been thrown into an "out-of-control tailspin." In fact there has been no change in Iowa overall. The only possible change has been an activation by many to attempt to codify bigotry into law. Because of the way Iowa's government is structured, it isn't as easy for mob rule as it was in California, so those who oppose equality are working extremely hard to create chaos because there is no other way to derail progress.
4) It is an outright lie to claim that "someone like me (a Pastor) may in the future face criminal prosecution for not being willing to perform a same-sex marriage." It is appalling first because it is such an outrageous claim, and second because lying is a sin and as a pastor you ought to know better. The law as passed only provides Civil Marriage to same-sex couples. Nothing more.
Lastly, al I can say is that it is offensive to me to read that "homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle." This remark suggests that you really don't know much about gay, and lesbian people. There is no such thing as "the gay lifestyle." Nor is there anything about my life, my relationship with the man I love or the way we participate in society,than my heterosexual neighbors.
My ancestors arrived a year after the Mayflower to Plymouth Colony. They came here to flee religious persecution in England and Europe, and our country formed with a sound basis of the separation of church and state. We live in a democracy and not a theocracy. Our governmental structure has been formed over time, and developed to assure a check and balance system to act in ways that are best for all and still protect the rights of the minority.
Thomas...
Thank you for your very well stated response. I want to answer some of your issues in the way that you enumerated them.
1. You are true that many have violently and, in some cases, insanely used Scripture to promote bad things. But, as I have stated to others, it was also the Christians who were the one who abolished slavery (it was not the atheist or the irreligious). It was Christian men and women standing on truth. By the way, Galileo was a devout Christian scientist. Freedom for slaves and women's equality came about because of Christians...a cursory study of the lives of those that fought for those things would show this to be true. Again, no atheist or irreligious person was making these advancements for society...it was the Christian who did it.
2. The problem with your statement is that it is very monolithic. It is as if what is happening in our culture is the arbiter of all things. Marriage has a very long history. And history would show us that it has not always had these two compartments that you so nicely break down for us (civil and religious). Marriage was first and foremost always a religious event (again history is on my side on this one). It is in only very recent history that marriage has taken on this two-sided nature. But it doesn't change what marriage is by definition. Marriage is a lifelong commitment between a man and a woman.
3. It is not an incorrect statement to claim that we are in a tailspin here in Iowa. I was at the capital building four out of five days last week fighting for the defense of marriage. What begins on April 24th is a gross misuse of our state by nonresidents (because we do not have a residency clause) seeking marriage licenses and headed back into states where these marriages will not necessarily be legally recognized by their own states causing a true ripple effect of our court systems across the nation. If this issue were put to a vote (as was the case in California) it would be easily defeated and put down by the overwhelming majority of this State who do not desire to have marriage redefined in this way. So yes, I believe, it is indeed in a tailspin.
4. There is no lie in my claim. Please educate yourself on the current legislation being put forth at a national level on hate crimes. If passed, we would become like countries such as Sweden and Canada where pastors have truly been arrested for merely speaking out against homosexuality as a lifestyle that runs counter to what Scripture calls us to live. If the legislation is passed, this is no longer an issue of "marriage equality" as the same-sex marriage proponents claim. It has set the stage for litigation in our country the likes of which have never been known or seen before. I am not only worried for myself on this, but what about the small business owner who specializes in wedding photography but out of conscience would not perform for a same-sex marriage because he or she is a Christian? What about the flower shop owner that is a Christian that wants to refuse? And, like I said, the small church pastor is certainly also within target as well. I would direct you to this link for more info on the current push for hate crimes legislation: http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LH07D01
Finally, I understand how it can seem offensive to hear that homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle but once again, statistics and history are on my side. STD's and AIDS are unfortunately all too common among those that live a homosexual lifestyle. The mortality rate of a person that lives the homosexual lifestyle is so much lower than a straigt person. That is the sad truth about it being a dangerous lifestyle.
I do, however, appreciate your post and your thoughts. I believe that is the way we are going to make any headway is that we don't stone each other but that we listen to each other. Hope to hear back from you.
what you dont seem to realize that today is the first time in 700 years in anglo saxon cultural history that homosexuality has finally been deemed legal. and being finally deemed legal, having the stigma of illegality removed, has allowed for it to be tested.
the acceptance that you are acknowleging is thru that testing. and contrary to christian cultural opinion scripture entreats believers to test everything.
1thess 5:21 test everything keep the good.
the results of the test is that homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother , friend, neighbor, attorney,counselor, teacher, father,soldier,doctor,etc
and homosexuals bond out of mutual love, affection, devotion ,respect, trust for a shared committed life together that same as with heterosexuals.
what you dont seem to realize that today is the first time in 700 years in anglo saxon cultural history that homosexuality has finally been deemed legal. and being finally deemed legal, having the stigma of illegality removed, has allowed for it to be tested.
the acceptance that you are acknowleging is thru that testing. and contrary to christian cultural opinion scripture entreats believers to test everything.
1thess 5:21 test everything keep the good.
the results of the test is that homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother , friend, neighbor, attorney,counselor, teacher, father,soldier,doctor,etc
and homosexuals bond out of mutual love, affection, devotion ,respect, trust for a shared committed life together that same as with heterosexuals.
john r
i am ready to challenge you that scripture has never said homosexuality was a sin. christian culture did this by assigning certain meaning to certain verses in spite of the words, even with christ's emphasis on the importance on each stroke of the law.
we can start with lev where some of the prohibitions of themselves are not sins under the new covenant, while at the same time other things that were directed, are now considered an intolerable evil.
case and point numbers
15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
under the new covenant it is not a sin to perform household chores. it is not a sin to perform household chores on the sabbath.
Interesting conversation.....
The so-called "separation of church and state" mentioned by Thomas is an often misused phrase. The First Amendment states that Congress can make no laws establishing religion, and that citizens are free to exercise the religion of their choice. The phrase "separation of church and state" does not actually appear in the Constitution.
This so-called "separation" does not mean biblical truths (such as marriage being between a man and woman) should not be legislated by government. Our morals should come from our Creator! Followers of Jesus Christ are obligated to uphold biblical truths.
Our founding fathers understood this. The vast majority of our founding fathers were Christian men and more than a third of our Constitution is founded on biblical principles*. To suggest that attempts by Christians to legislate a biblical definition of marriage is "religious persecution" is simply incorrect. Religious persecution, as defined by the First Amendment, would be establishing a national religion or preventing free exercise of religious choices.
Thomas, I'm not entirely sure if you suggesting this or not, but many others are which led me to post this comment.
I do think it's mean-spirited to suggest that Pastor Mike is lying. That's just not very nice! Perhaps you feel he is "exaggerating" or "misinformed". The fact is, however, he is not exaggerating and is not misinformed. Lawsuits are already cropping up across the nation on this issue. One couple in Massachusetts is suing a church because the church refused to allow their property to be used for a same-gender marriage ceremony. A wedding photographer has been sued (Arizona, I think) for refusing to photograph a same-gender ceremony. The door is wide open for these kinds of lawsuits. Sure, it's not likely this will happen to him, but it is absolutely possible.
Thomas, I'm glad you took the time to post your thoughts on this blog. It's a good conversation.
* Wallbuilders.com
my understanding(paraphrase) is that the law says that the state will not support one religion over another. that would not exclude using any truth from any religion as long as the evidence for its use was on a objective reasoned basis, and not a belief basis.
something i find absent in the argument of those for traditional marriage.
i further purport that coming against homosexuality out of belief or law is not of christ.
in romans paul said we are led by and serve of of the spirit, and the summation of the law under the new covenant (not the "old"......."what is named old will become obsolete and soon pass away")is the second commandment.
the torn curtain at the crucifixion showed that we no longer have a relationship to god thru regulation(regulation of design or regulation of the natural)as in deut 28.
therefore whatever is of christ is because it is of the spirit of christ. homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way that heterosexual marriages are.
homosexual marriages are positve and affirming in the same way as heterosexual marriages and have no resemblance to the shame noted in romans 1 and 1tim and 1corr(defilers of themselves with mankind) which is about self hatred and self loathing.....ergo shame.
bottom line in christ, our interest is about spirit. and where the spirit rests testifies to what is of christ.
others have brought up, christ upholding every stroke of the law, but this is the law, not derived from the old covenant understandings but,the law derived from understandings that embrace the essence of the second commandment.
of what spirit are we embracing our homosexual believing brothers(neighbors) who bond in marriage in the same spirit of devotion and commitment as their heterosexual brothers and sisters when we attempt to deny them marriage?
if you look at history you will see that it has been by a gradual, rather than an immediate process, that the holy spirit has weaned christendom off the old covenant and its understandings.
and now in that process, thru the issue about homosexuality, we are being forced to reacknowledge that the basis of the new covenant is the 3 commandments of love.
and that the capacity of embracing christ, is equal in those homosexuals, compared to heterosexuals.
and in regards to sexual intimacy, as in heterosexual marriage, sexual intimacy in homosexual marriage, its frequency and satisfaction is an indication of the health of the marriage.
To feetxxl:
Setting aside for a moment your misuse and revisionist understanding of Scripture, there are numerous scientific and statistical studies that have shown that homosexuals have increased levels of smoking, alcohol abuse, STD's (including the HIV virus, which causes AIDS), depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts and domestic violence. Children raised by homosexual couples are statistically more likely to experience poorer physical health, suffer more emotional problems, struggle more than others in school, engage in criminal behavior and experiment with sex at earlier ages.
A home with two female parents cannot teach a boy how to be a man. A home with two male parents cannot teach a girl how to be a woman. Nor can a child learn heterosexual relations in this environment.
Concerning your understanding of Scripture...let me start by saying that the Scriptures warn: Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness (Isaiah 5:20).
You quoted from Romans but you cannot be so purposefully ignorant that Romans 1:26 clearly declares that ALL homosexual practices are "against nature" in terms of biological nature (not sociological nature as some would try to say is the real nature being discussed).
The very first book of the Bible declares what is natural...Genesis 1:27-28, God created male and female and instructed them to be "fruitful and multiply." Something that is only possible between a biological male and female.
A little later God gave instructions on marriage in Genesis 2:24 when He said that a man will leave his mother and father and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Listen, God finds all sexual sin to be wrong. Homosexual acts are contrary to human nature.
What His design was from the very beginning...it was never rescinded or redefined (no matter what the Pirates in the State Supreme Court have ruled here in Iowa)...it is ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN FOR LIFE. There is no other design motiff.
To argue any other case violently ignores the whole counsel of Scripture.
"there are numerous scientific and statistical studies that have shown that homosexuals have increased levels of smoking, alcohol abuse, STD's (including the HIV virus, which causes AIDS), depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts and domestic violence. Children raised by homosexual couples are statistically more likely to experience poorer physical health, suffer more emotional problems, struggle more than others in school, engage in criminal behavior and experiment with sex at earlier ages."
surely narth is no scientific organization. it was formed for a premise and has consistently declared only those things that support that premise. that in no way is the scientific process.
what they did was to go to gay bars, places where those who live addicted lives congregated, then they compared those numbers with those of the religous right who supported them. to give any credibility to the numbers you have to make the conclusion that all 100% of all gays lived sexually addicted lives and therefore all 100% attend bars regularly.
or they went to clinics that treated gays and made the same comparisons.
"A home with two female parents cannot teach a boy how to be a man. A home with two male parents cannot teach a girl how to be a woman. Nor can a child learn heterosexual relations in this environment."
you make the assumption that 2 parent families, can only raise healthy heterosexual men. how do account for homosexuals coming out of these same heterosexual families. that close to half of american families are single parented, but the percentages of homosexual have remained consistently the same percentage for a millenium. how do you account for all the healthy men raised in single parent families, and all the unhealthy men raised in 2 parent households. if bad parenting is blamed for the rise of homosexuality then, there should guargantous numbers of homosexuals through the last three hundred years where the concept of nurturing parenting never existed.
all the diseases that you list can be dealt with thru safe sex. and the reason for most of them comes from promiscuous sex, and is also suffered by promiscuous heterosexuals who dont practice safe sex.
remember it was promiscious sex among heterosexuals that wiped out millions in africa from aids and contributed to the existence 3o million orphans.
"A home with two female parents cannot teach a boy how to be a man. A home with two male parents cannot teach a girl how to be a woman. Nor can a child learn heterosexual relations in this environment."
"Concerning your understanding of Scripture...let me start by saying that the Scriptures warn: Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness (Isaiah 5:20)."
it is amazing that your opening response to my understanding of scripture is with accusation and not with addressing one point.
You quoted from Romans but you cannot be so purposefully ignorant that Romans 1:26 clearly declares that ALL homosexual practices are "against nature" in terms of biological nature (not sociological nature as some would try to say is the real nature being discussed).
please show me how the words of those verses say the above.
1. homosexuals never had women..........not from their earliest sexual memories. how does one abandon something one never has?
2. how do you call natural being coerced to bond with someone one has never had an attraction for since their earliest sexual memory.
3. in genesis (niv) god speaks about an appropriate pardner. how is an appropriate pardner
someone for who there is no attraction and to bond with brings no peace to their soul.
4. just as there is a thousand things that make you heterosexual, the same is true of homosexuals as well.
5. romans(niv) says they were given over to "shameful lusts". anything given over to lust is committed to that lust. the persons involved are merely mechanisms to satiate the lust. there is not mutual human commitment. do you have evidence that the legal gay marriages in massachussets are trending toward the divorce percentages of heterosexuals?
6. homosexuals bond out of mutual love, affection, devotion, affection and trust for a shared committed life together the same as heterosexuals. saying that romans is about homosexuality is like saying that heterosexual orgies are about heterosexual bonding.
7.why in romans, do the women do the same things that their men do. the only rights women had in roman society was thru the male they were associated with........ be it father brother or son etc. either this is referring to pagan temple worship which had male and female prostitutes, or this is some kind of family get together.
"The very first book of the Bible declares what is natural...Genesis 1:27-28, God created male and female and instructed them to be "fruitful and multiply." Something that is only possible between a biological male and female."
even a dog can procreate, but the nature of the human being makes it critically importanrt that they be nurtured. the important thing is who will provide a loving nurturing home for raising children, which believing gay married couples do equally compared to those of believing married heterosexualscouples and they have offered them to abandoned and rejected children of heterosexual unions.
"A little later God gave instructions on marriage in Genesis 2:24 when He said that a man will leave his mother and father and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
there is no "only" in this scripture, it is designating one possibility. where does it infer that anything else is not god's design.
if jesus accentuated the importance of each stroke of the law, how is it you are comfortable adding your own.
matt5:17abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
surely you are not saying "that scripture is only god breathed (1tim)when i add my own stroke."
"What His design was from the very beginning...it was never rescinded or redefined (no matter what the Pirates in the State Supreme Court have ruled here in Iowa)...it is ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN FOR LIFE. There is no other design motiff.
To argue any other case violently ignores the whole counsel of Scripture."
again.................... the torn curtain at the holies of holies showed that believers no longer had a relationship to god thru regulation as in deut 28, instead the relationship was to be directly to the spirit of the triune god that lives in each believer.
in truth there is no leading by regulation and law in the new covenant, but instead it is by the spirit, that believers serve of, living under grace. (romans)
the law now being to make us "conscious"of sin (romans), conscious of not loving our neighbor as ourselves, the summatiion of all new covenant law.(romans)
if your understanding is that we are led by and live under regulation and law, please annotate.
the massachussets supreme court stated that no evidence had been presented that that showed why gays should not be allowed to marry.
that has not changed........................... evidence has yet to be presented. as i said before the seperation between church and state says that government will not favor one religion over another. you keep giving religous reasons why the courts shouldn't have ruled what they did. do you have any evidence based on objective reason which the rule of law in this country is based. .
amazing. you are a pastor and you can only respond by accusation and condemnation and are unable to address one of my points thru any kind of objective reason............objective reason, what paul used thru his entire epistles.
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